Just who was this Jesus Christ?

[pladecalvo]

There is no historical documentation within the supposed time of Jesus Christ. In fact, there isn't a single known document which mentions a Jesus Christ that could be found to have appeared during the supposed time of Christ.

Using rationality, we should weigh our beliefs so as to make them proportional to the evidence at hand. If there is no evidence that someone existed, then we have no reason to believe that he or she did indeed exist. Thus, if we wish to be reasonable and rationable human beings, we should not believe that said person existed.

History also follows a certain level of rational standards when putting together accurate time lines. If we are told that there is an important figure who existed at a certain time, we would expect that signs of this figure exist. These signs may come in many different forms, but they must be reliable and relevant. No signs can be found during the time of Jesus to support his existence.

What say you my learned friends?

[Flynn]

You are correct in saying that there is no written word of Jesus from historical records from the time of his birth.


These days we use paper shredders and reformating discs to get rid of any any information we don't want circulated. Who's to say that government officals weren't told to remove all trace of his name from the records.

You can't prove that Jesus did not exist !

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by Flynn

You are correct in saying that there is no written word of Jesus from historical records from the time of his birth.


These days we use paper shredders and reformating discs to get rid of any any information we don't want circulated. Who's to say that government officals weren't told to remove all trace of his name from the records.

You can't prove that Jesus did not exist !

No I can't prove he didn't exist but as I said, if we to consider ourselves capable of rational though, and given the lack of evidence to support his existence, we have no reason to believe he existed.

.......and why would Government officials want to remove all traces of him, indeed, given the alleged fame of this Jesus, do you think that would even be possible?

[sexysadie]

Before I say anything else, let me ask you this..do you believe in God?

[sexysadie]

As far as the historians of the day were concerned, Jesus was just a "blip" on the screen. No more no less. He was not considered to be historically significant..He never travelled outside of the regions of Palestine, and was not a member of any known political party. It is only because Christians later made Jesus a "celebrity" that He became known. Jesus was executed as a criminal..he was an outcast and lived an offensive lifestyle and alienated many people. He associated with the despised and rejected, Tax collectors, prostitutes, and the few fishermen He had as disciples. Jesus was a poor, rural person in a land run by wealthy urbanites. Yes, class discrimination was alive and well in the first century also! Why do we find it so hard to believe that there is no evidence proving his existence. It's almost as if you expect there to be a picture of Him holding a massive amount of wine and fish..come on..if you know the history of Jesus Christ, I mean the real history behind the man, then you can't sit there and say beyond a shadow of a doubt that He doesnt exist because of this so called lack of evidence.

[Vinnie]

Originally Posted by sexysadie

As far as the historians of the day were concerned, Jesus was just a "blip" on the screen. No more no less. He was not considered to be historically significant..He never travelled outside of the regions of Palestine, and was not a member of any known political party. It is only because Christians later made Jesus a "celebrity" that He became known. Jesus was executed as a criminal..he was an outcast and lived an offensive lifestyle and alienated many people. He associated with the despised and rejected, Tax collectors, prostitutes, and the few fishermen He had as disciples. Jesus was a poor, rural person in a land run by wealthy urbanites. Yes, class discrimination was alive and well in the first century also! Why do we find it so hard to believe that there is no evidence proving his existence. It's almost as if you expect there to be a picture of Him holding a massive amount of wine and fish..come on..if you know the history of Jesus Christ, I mean the real history behind the man, then you can't sit there and say beyond a shadow of a doubt that He doesnt exist because of this so called lack of evidence.

I'd only take issue with one part of your reply. "he was a poor rural person" his Dad was a carpenter so was probobly by the standards of the time not that poor.
Otherwise yes I do agree with what you said (Sorry it's a bit like the "being born in a stable" story... that has got twisted over time. He was not born in an unusual situation - quite the reverse the stable story was meant to show how ordinary his birth was and the fact he was "one of us". I suppose the modern equivalent would be born into a 3 bed semi in Bridge of Don.)

[sexysadie]

Originally Posted by Vinnie

I'd only take issue with one part of your reply. "he was a poor rural person" his Dad was a carpenter so was probobly by the standards of the time not that poor.
Otherwise yes I do agree with what you said (Sorry it's a bit like the "being born in a stable" story... that has got twisted over time. He was not born in an unusual situation - quite the reverse the stable story was meant to show how ordinary his birth was and the fact he was "one of us". I suppose the modern equivalent would be born into a 3 bed semi in Bridge of Don.)

I'll give you this much, as a child under his parents roof Jesus was probably considered well to do..but as an adult, travelling around the country side, preaching the gospel, he was a poor man in the eyes of many..very poor compared to most...which is probably the main reason why he was shunned and ignored by the wealthy...he was considered a trouble maker. In the eyes of the wealthy urbanites, he was no better than the prostitutes and beggers they despised so much.

[Flynn]

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

No I can't prove he didn't exist but as I said, if we to consider ourselves capable of rational though, and given the lack of evidence to support his existence, we have no reason to believe he existed.

.......and why would Government officials want to remove all traces of him, indeed, given the alleged fame of this Jesus, do you think that would even be possible?

Governments collect taxes so do religous groups, money is as good a motive as any as to why Jesus could have had his records erased.

[Flynn]

Originally Posted by sexysadie

I'll give you this much, as a child under his parents roof Jesus was probably considered well to do..but as an adult, travelling around the country side, preaching the gospel, he was a poor man in the eyes of many..very poor compared to most...which is probably the main reason why he was shunned and ignored by the wealthy...he was considered a trouble maker. In the eyes of the wealthy urbanites, he was no better than the prostitutes and beggers they despised so much.

If Mary and Joseph were " well to do " in their community then Joseph then carpenter could have slipped the consierge at the local Hyatt Hotel a few pieces of silver to get better accomodation than a barn for the birth of Gods son.

[sexysadie]

Originally Posted by Flynn

If Mary and Joseph were " well to do " in their community then Joseph then carpenter could have slipped the consierge at the local Hyatt Hotel a few pieces of silver to get better accomodation than a barn for the birth of Gods son.

I think it's more of a question of 'where' they were at the time of His birth not 'who' they were..and when I say "well to do" I don't mean rich like the solicialites that lived so grand, I just mean they weren't homeless or hungry..Joseph provided very well for his family. You have to consider who we're talking about here...I don't think that Mary and Joseph wanted for much because their needs were so simple. And once again the question of 'class' comes up...there was no room at the inn remember? If they were the 'upper class' then maybe you're right, Jesus would have been born in the lap of luxury..it kind of loses something in the translation don't you think?