Let's argue about Religion...I don't get to do that enough!!

[OldMt.Grizzly]

Well said Freaky.

Unfortunately being Scottish, Irish and German I must answer the challenge posted by Patrish and will be posting that shortly. But, hopefully as believers in Christ we can maintain an open dialogue between brothers and sisters in our Lord and discuss our different points of view rather than war over the details.

[Jon Collardgreens]

Foxes Book of Martyrs That'll tell ya who was

doin the persecutin. It is also available in a shortened

paperback version. Its worth it. I have the paperback

version. I have see the big thick hardback version.

Anybody has any ques.Check it out.

[FreakyStylie]

I should also have noted in my post that I was not trying to be offensive, nor was it aimed at anybody other than to the people who may be thinking that it is too complicated to believe. I feel that this thread has been very well communicated and there haven't been the mud-slinging, etc posts that can occur.


I know what you mean about the mix, through in a few more and you've got my blood. Hell, sometimes I find myself yelling at myself - the neighbors think I'm weird. LOL

Originally Posted by OldMt.Grizzly

Well said Freaky.

Unfortunately being Scottish, Irish and German I must answer the challenge posted by Patrish and will be posting that shortly. But, hopefully as believers in Christ we can maintain an open dialogue between brothers and sisters in our Lord and discuss our different points of view rather than war over the details.

[OldMt.Grizzly]

Before I get started here, let me say again that I am not claiming that any denomination is condemned because we disagree on points of doctrine. So long as the salvation issues are those expressed by Christ everything else is minor. Also, I did not say that Catholic people do not know their Bibles. Sometimes, I think people of many different denominations have studied their Bibles, but adhere to a certain denomination because they were raised in it and do not know what their governing body states, but that is far different from not knowing the Bible.

First let me respond to your “hint” about me not revealing my denomination. I thought I was very clear on my beliefs in what I posted, but I did not specify a denomination for the simple reason that I do not claim one. I grew up attending a Baptist church, have an uncle who is a Lutheran minister, have also attended Nazarene, Methodist, Mennonite and Pentecostal churches, Studied as a Biblical studies major at a private Quaker College and am currently completing a degree at a Baptist University. However, as I stated I do not claim any one denomination because I have found points of doctrine which are not consistent with scripture (i.e. Baptists completely forbid drinking of alcohol or dancing, but Jesus turned water into wine and it was when king David was filled with the spirit of God that he began to dance, Pentecostal’s believe in speaking in tongues, but not as described in the Bible, etc……) Rather, I study the God inspired word and let the Spirit guide me.

That being said, I think we have a problem with discussing belief systems that goes beyond minor points. You stated that it is a misunderstanding of what is meant by being the ONE mediator. The Bible is not unclear about this at all. If I say that I own one car, it means I own one car, not that I own one but use many. If I meant that I own one but use many, that is what I would have said and if God meant that there is one final mediator but a network that leads to that one, He would have said so.

Bearing that in mind, I will respond only with evidence taken from the scriptures.

The reference in John 20:23 uses terminology that was common to Jewish rabbinical writings, more accurately as worded by Matthew in previous conversations with Jesus (before His death and resurrection) “whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 16:19 and Matthew 18:18. One of many examples of this are the goad and the nail fastened by a master craftsman in Ecclesiastes 12:11. These are word pictures given to signify the teaching of what is established by scripture, not the authority to over rule it. The authority to forgive sin or to alter scripture was never exercised by the apostles and plainly they never understood themselves to possess it. Even in the case of Simon the sorcerer (Acts 8:9-25) who believed, but did not receive, Peter told him to, “Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.” When Simon asked Peter to pray for him, there is no indication that Peter did so, and Peter did not forgive him his sins, but as already stated told him to ask God for forgiveness.

Even in the Old testament book of Isaiah 43:18-27 in the prophecy about the coming new covenant God states that, “I am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.”

A more accurate appraisal of the instruction to forgive sin is contained in Matthew 6:12-18. The forgiveness referred to is for trespasses, or sins, against the individual, not sin in it's greater sense of sin against God. It is noteworthy that this is immediately followed by the exhortation to keep your business with God between you and God, not as a show for men.

Also, Paul writes in his letter to the church in Rome of the direct bond between believers and God, not through another fleshly conduit but through the Holy Spirit. (Romans 8:14-16)


And he continues with his explanation of the spirit making direct intercession. (Romans 8:26-27)

John 14:13-20 further demonstrates the relationship between God and man through the Spirit of Jesus directly and begins quite aptly with whatsoever ye shall ask in my name. This does not mean simply using the words, “in Jesus name” but infers acting in accordance with his teachings. Just as an ambassador from another country does not use the name of the country to justify their own desires but in the name of that country follows that country’s direction.


Paul is concerned about the early Christians already following false doctrines and placing the Apostles in positions of authority that they did not have. He writes specifically in 1 Corinthians 1:12-15 of this concern.

2 Corinthians 2:5-11 further demonstrates that the forgiveness of sins is in relation to sins against the person or the church, not all of man’s sin.

The book of Hebrews declares that our high priest is Jesus and it is him "with whom we have to do". (Hebrews 4:14-16)

Again, in the book of Hebrews we are told that the Spirit bears witness for us and that through the cleansing of Christ's blood we may draw near to the throne of God and enter,"into the holiest" a reference to the heavenly kingdom equivelant to the holy of holies in the tabernacle. There is no need to go before a man, when we are told to go directly to the throne of God. (Hebrews 10:14-22)

1 John 5:1-21 also goes into detail about the relationship of the trinity; the Father, the Word (a commonly used pseudonym for Jesus), and the Holy Ghost and states that they are one, meaning that they agree as proposed by some doctrines (JW) but that they are one as is made clear by the very next verse which says there are three witnesses in earth that agree in one. Furthermore, verse 10 states that he that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself. If the witness is within us, and the scriptures say that is the case, and the witness (the Holy Ghost) is one in the same with the Word (Jesus) and the Father, what does it profit to pray to anyone else. Rather this borders dangerously close to idolatry, which is warned against in verse 21 as is the making of any “graven image” in Exodus 20:4 and Leviticus 26:1.

Matthew 6:6-15 declares again that prayers are to be made directly to God and in private, not to someone else or in a public fashion. It also speaks to something neither of us have brought up which is the use of the rosary. The gospel states plainly, “But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.”

Since you mentioned the reverence to Mary, let me point out a couple of things. First, you referred to the commandment to honor your father and mother. Honor means respect, obey, etc. it does not mean pray to. Secondly an often misused word is the word blessed. To bless means to make happy. When the angel told Mary that she was blessed among women that meant that she should feel happy because she was being used by God, not that there was something special about her. In fact, in Luke 11:27-28, Jesus even declares that those who hear the word of God and keep it are the ones who are blessed more so than Mary.

[OldMt.Grizzly]

I was going to actually include the quoted passages, but as you can see it is already pretty long. LOL

Also, for anyone who is interested there is a great resource at http://www.e-sword.net

you can download various translations of the Bible, commentaries, dictionaries, and a lot more (including Fox's book of Martyrs as mentioned by John Collardgreens) it is all free and it is a great tool for study of the scriptures.

[OldMt.Grizzly]

Okay, that being said and understanding that we may differ on individual points of interpretation but as long as we agree on the issues of salvation as set forth in the scriptures (which I previously outlined) then we are members of the same family, the family of God, maybe you can help me out with something I witnessed while I was in Brazil.

I was in the cathedral in Sao Paulo, Brazil in 1990 and saw some things there that disturbed me but that the priest did not want to discuss with me. I guess he was busy or I caught him at a bad time. Now, bear in mind the things I wanted to ask him about were not just local customs but were approved through Rome.

1. There is an icon known as “Aparacida” (I don’t know if I spelled that right or not) this word is Portugese and means, “the appeared lady”. As the story goes, a fisherman was out and while fishing he pulled up in his net the head of a doll sized statue. He put the head in his boat and continued to fish. Later on he pulled up the rest of the statue and put it in his boat as well. He took the statue home, reattached the head and put it on a shelf. Each night when he went to bed the statue would move to a different location. Soon people started coming to see this statue and some of them were healed of various infirmities. Word of the statue reached the church and the statue was moved to the cathedral. Once there, it stopped moving. One day, someone went into the cathedral and tried to steal Aparacida but on the way out dropped her and she shattered. The pieces were swept up and sent to Rome where they were put back together, but the statue was not sent back to Brazil. Instead copies were sent so that the original could be protected. Now, I asked people there who Aparacida was. They answered, she is the appeared lady. Okay, is she Mary, the mother of Jesus? No. The other Mary? No. Martha? No. Then who is she? She is the appeared lady. So, what we have is a statue with no identity that moved around in a supernatural way until it was placed into the cathedral to be prayed to, and the local people are encouraged by Rome to pray to it. Can you explain to me how that works?

2. Walking through the same cathedral I was looking at the icons of the saints. (some of these are very graphic by the way, including a statue of Jesus with the crown of thorns, etc…. laying in a glass coffin) On each of the icons was printed the name of the saint (in Portugese of course, Juan, Pedro, Matteo, etc..) but below that was printed another word. I asked what this other word was, thinking it was some kind of descriptor, i.e. saint of travel, or some such thing. What I was told was much different. This other word, was the saint’s other name. I asked what do you mean other name? The other name was the name of one of the local voo doo gods which had been assigned to each of the saints. Now that I really don’t get. Forget for a minute, that I believe that making graven images of the “saints” or anyone else and praying to it is paramount to idol worship, but to add to that the name of voo doo gods so that the local can still pray to them? I don’t get it.

3. This is the last practice I will ask about because already, I am afraid this will look like an attack and I don’t mean it that way, I am genuinely curious. If someone has an injured leg for example, they go into this cathedral and buy a wax leg. They then place the wax leg into a box in the cathedral so that the priests can pray for their healing by praying over the wax leg. This is true of any body part. As the limbs get damaged, they are melted down and made into new limbs or candles, which are then sold again. The wax that drips from the candles runs into a box below where they are placed and is collected and goes through the same process. Again, all three of these I am asking about are done by the direction of Rome. Can you help me to understand these practices that I can’t find any justification for in scripture?

Originally Posted by OldMt.Grizzly

Okay, that being said and understanding that we may differ on individual points of interpretation but as long as we agree on the issues of salvation as set forth in the scriptures (which I previously outlined) then we are members of the same family, the family of God, maybe you can help me out with something I witnessed while I was in Brazil.

I was in the cathedral in Sao Paulo, Brazil in 1990 and saw some things there that disturbed me but that the priest did not want to discuss with me. I guess he was busy or I caught him at a bad time. Now, bear in mind the things I wanted to ask him about were not just local customs but were approved through Rome.

1. There is an icon known as “Aparacida” (I don’t know if I spelled that right or not) this word is Portugese and means, “the appeared lady”. As the story goes, a fisherman was out and while fishing he pulled up in his net the head of a doll sized statue. He put the head in his boat and continued to fish. Later on he pulled up the rest of the statue and put it in his boat as well. He took the statue home, reattached the head and put it on a shelf. Each night when he went to bed the statue would move to a different location. Soon people started coming to see this statue and some of them were healed of various infirmities. Word of the statue reached the church and the statue was moved to the cathedral. Once there, it stopped moving. One day, someone went into the cathedral and tried to steal Aparacida but on the way out dropped her and she shattered. The pieces were swept up and sent to Rome where they were put back together, but the statue was not sent back to Brazil. Instead copies were sent so that the original could be protected. Now, I asked people there who Aparacida was. They answered, she is the appeared lady. Okay, is she Mary, the mother of Jesus? No. The other Mary? No. Martha? No. Then who is she? She is the appeared lady. So, what we have is a statue with no identity that moved around in a supernatural way until it was placed into the cathedral to be prayed to, and the local people are encouraged by Rome to pray to it. Can you explain to me how that works?

2. Walking through the same cathedral I was looking at the icons of the saints. (some of these are very graphic by the way, including a statue of Jesus with the crown of thorns, etc…. laying in a glass coffin) On each of the icons was printed the name of the saint (in Portugese of course, Juan, Pedro, Matteo, etc..) but below that was printed another word. I asked what this other word was, thinking it was some kind of descriptor, i.e. saint of travel, or some such thing. What I was told was much different. This other word, was the saint’s other name. I asked what do you mean other name? The other name was the name of one of the local voo doo gods which had been assigned to each of the saints. Now that I really don’t get. Forget for a minute, that I believe that making graven images of the “saints” or anyone else and praying to it is paramount to idol worship, but to add to that the name of voo doo gods so that the local can still pray to them? I don’t get it.

3. This is the last practice I will ask about because already, I am afraid this will look like an attack and I don’t mean it that way, I am genuinely curious. If someone has an injured leg for example, they go into this cathedral and buy a wax leg. They then place the wax leg into a box in the cathedral so that the priests can pray for their healing by praying over the wax leg. This is true of any body part. As the limbs get damaged, they are melted down and made into new limbs or candles, which are then sold again. The wax that drips from the candles runs into a box below where they are placed and is collected and goes through the same process. Again, all three of these I am asking about are done by the direction of Rome. Can you help me to understand these practices that I can’t find any justification for in scripture?

I'll be honest...There must be some other religion in Rome that you are talking about, or else those Brazilians are Bullshitting their way to salvation!

Originally Posted by OldMt.Grizzly

Also, I read an interesting article about the speed of light. As you may know carbon 14 dating is based on the known quality of the speed at which the radioactive isotope carbon 14 breaks down. (half life) According to this article various tests have shown that the speed of light is not constant but actually be slowing down. As you know from Einstein's theory of relativity as you approach the speed of light, time slows down. Now bear with me here. If light is slowing down, then the break down of carbon 14 would also be slowing down because by the slowing of light we are therefore closer to it's speed. Time measured by morning and evening are a day would still be counted the same, but as evidenced in carbon 14 dating time would be slowing down. So, if the speed of light was much faster 10 to the 10th power at the time of creation carbon 14 dating would accurately report the radiological age of the earth at billions of years, while the morning and evening are a day age would still accurately be much, much younger. Oops, there goes evolution again. The world has not been around long enough for the Billions of years that evolution would take if it were legitimate in the first place.

For more information on some of these fascinating items check out http://www.khouse.org

You seem pretty smart...do you know anything about negative refraction mediums...just thought I'd ask, cuz I am trying to find some info on that, and you were already talking about the speed of light.

[OldMt.Grizzly]

Let me answer both your posts with one.

1. Sorry, no it was THE church in Rome, as in the Vatican. These practices were all approved from there. That is why it threw me for such a loop. Because all though I may not agree with all doctrines of the "Holy church in Rome" I do consider it's followers fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

2. Sorry, I had not heard of negative refraction mediums until your post. But, I did a quick web search starting at excite.com and putting in negative refraction medium and came up with tons of hits.

hope that helps.

[Patrish]

Freaky, I indeed wish ppl would turn back to faith in Christ and God.
Not why I am defending my religion...and if you ever look at my posts...with an exception of Jehovah Witnesses, (I could get into why, but not @ this time) I avoid conflicting opinions regarding other religions.

Jon C...I am sure both the early Christians and the then the Roman empire persecuted others.
Then too the Lutherans and the Catholics were persecuted by Calvinists.
So...there is NO pinpointing who is the worst in history, but that all denominations of Christianity saw persecution.
IT is because man is man....and corruption makes no distinction in denomination....but in the individual leaders, or persons.
The error is pointing to that and saying the WHOLE is bad, when a part was rotten.

Grizzers...O Grizzers....
Number one, My brother left the church to become a born again christian...but he saw the truth, and returned to Catholicism. IF one was never Catholic, one would never how it feels to believe fully with the heart...and it is IMPORTANT to believe whole heartedly...

Or remember when the Lord said, "You are neither hot nor cold on my tongue, and I shall spit you out."
DON'T be lukewarm....and NO, I am Catholic because I choose to be. I understand it....therefore why leave...if you know what you believe in. RIGHT?

that is what I would have said and if God meant that there is one final mediator but a network that leads to that one, He would have said so.

Let me clarify....ONE mediator means......ONLY Christ can be between man and God....
BUT you saw the scripture, where man was given the authority thru Jesus to forgive and not forgive sins. Therefore...IT is NOT an issue of forgiveness...but you must Thank God, Pray to God, ask for priveleges....from God...all through Jesus Christ.

(Acts 8:9-25) who believed, but did not receive, Peter told him to, “Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.” When Simon asked Peter to pray for him, there is no indication that Peter did so, and Peter did not forgive him his sins, but as already stated told him to ask God for forgiveness.

Note where it is verse 23 & 24....
'for I see (Peter can see their hearts...and their actions...and he can give them admonishment....and advise them to seek God...as per the confessions...they tell you to search your heart, pray, and sin no more.....) thou art in the gall of bitterness and in the bond OF INIQUITY.' (Again, he has been given the authority to see and advise...and again....he did forgive him...see 24)
BUT Simon answered, 'Do YOU PRAY FOR ME TO THE LORD, THAT NOTHING OF WHAT YOU YOU HAVE SAID MAY HAPPEN TO ME.'
(Now understand Grizzy....if he could not ask for this man's forgiveness before the Lord Jesus whom He preached.....then why would this man ask such a thing...and he made no reproach...so you see.....Peter did forgive others....thru our Lord Jesus Christ AMEN)

God states that, “I am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.”

THIS was given proof that Christ was to be God in the flesh. He blotted out our sins....and no one else could...because only Jesus COULD bring salvation through his death. BUT keep in mind....Jesus died and rose and left the apostles to build His church on earth...and stand in HIS place ....he did not leave us abandoned, ...do remember he said...He was always with us til the end of time.

By quoting Matthew in regards to the Our Father prayer, are you suggesting we should rip out the part John gave when Jesus gave a direct quote...?
Let me assure you...ALL denominations should seek the Our Father as it the perfect prayer...and all we shall need from the father is in that prayer....
THIS is not in reference to the Apostles being the visible Christ on earth.

Also, Paul writes in his letter to the church in Rome of the direct bond between believers and God, not through another fleshly conduit but through the Holy Spirit. (Romans 8:14-16)

Then read where Peter lays hands on others, and they receive the Holy Spirit. Jesus sent His spirit as proof HIS Apostles were sanctioned for these things....
Keep that in mind, my dear. Acts 8;17
'Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Hold Spirit.

AND yes the Spirit makes direct intercession....BUT hon, do NOT forget...Peter and the others....were given the gift to pour forth the Spirit with ordained hands....and if you can grasp the Apostles worked for the Lord, you can then grasp THEY were given all power on earth to do this for the Lord.

John 14:13-20 further demonstrates the relationship between God and man through the Spirit of Jesus directly and begins quite aptly with whatsoever ye shall ask in my name. This does not mean simply using the words, “in Jesus name” but infers acting in accordance with his teachings.

BINGO....as I said...this is how he is Mediator...

AND AGAIN...I shall repeat...He gave the ability to forgive...and you also pointed out a part of scripture...where Peter IN fact did forgive! And stood between man and Jesus.....for Simon.

Are you seeing where I am yet?

Corinthians 1;12
Now this is what I mean; each of you says, I am of Paul, or I am Apollos, or I am of Cephes, or I am of Christ. Has Christ been divided up? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptised in the name of Paul?

He was saying THAT people should NOT put the Apostles above Christ. But in no where do the Catholics put Saints above God...or Jesus. NOT about the postitions of authority...and he was not remonstrating apostles, but explaining the humbleness of Christs followers and they cannot still be as Christ. Christ has all authority...and in giving authoirty to His church...he demonstrates thru the miracles of HIS apostles that HE is with them.

In other words...there are not merely human, but choosen to do his works.

(Hebrews 10:14-22)
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws UPON THEIR HEARTS, and UPON THEIR MINDS I will write them, he then adds, And their sins and their iniquities I will remember no more.'
NOW WHERE THERE IS FORGIVENESS OF THESE, THERE IS NO LONGER OFFERING FOR SIN.

WHO wrote down the laws and who preached them? The apostles were sanctioned to preach....and teach. They were given the SPIRIT hence Jesus breathed HIS spirit upon them.
WE no longer make other oferings to the Lord, only the Eucharist...which Christ TOLD us to do. He is the perpetual sacrifice. NO other offerings need be made, except that of the Lord.
And we commemorate this with the Body and Blood of Christ. AMEN!

Corinthians 2:10
Whom you pardon anything, I also pardon...(Well shucks...if he is not able to forgive...then what gives him the right to be so bold...?)
Indeed, what I HAVE FORGIVEN--IF I HAVE FORGIVEN ANYTHING--I HAVE DONE FOR YOUR SAKES, IN THE PERSON OF CHRIST......that we may not be defeated by Satan; for we are not unaware of his devices.

AGAIN..Grizzers....now PAUL shows he can forgive thru Jesus......quote...and unquote. MUAH!

Since you mentioned the reverence to Mary, let me point out a couple of things. First, you referred to the commandment to honor your father and mother. Honor means respect, obey, etc. it does not mean pray to. Secondly an often misused word is the word blessed. To bless means to make happy. When the angel told Mary that she was blessed among women that meant that she should feel happy because she was being used by God, not that there was something special about her. In fact, in Luke 11:27-28, Jesus even declares that those who hear the word of God and keep it are the ones who are blessed more so than Mary.

HAIL MARY FULL OF GRACE, BLESSED ART THOU AMONST WOMEN, AND BLESSED IS THE FURIT OF THY WOMB JESUS........St Luke 1;28

Do you have a problem with quoting scripture as we pray...?

and for the rest...we did add...
HOLY MARY, MOTHER OF GOD, PRAY FOR US SINNERS NOW AND AT THE HOUR OF OUR DEATHS AMEN!

Saints intercessions....look at Hebrews 12; 22
'But you have come to Mount Sion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalum, and to the company of many thousands of angels, and to the CHURCH of the firstborn who are enrolled in the heavens, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect, and to Jesus, mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkling of blood which speaks better of Abel. Also see Luke 16; 9
1 Corinthains 12; 8
Apoc...Revelations 5;8
Revelations 2; 26....5; 10

catch ya laterz! I have to run...its been fun.

C'mon buddy that was fun...but if I am correct, you will still disagree.

HUGS