Ban the Burqa

[kipper]

Also a bit of a bugger for the deaf and hard of hearing who lip read.

[Flynn]

LMP

I've noticed the same thing about immigrants.

Greeks and Italians who emigrated here 30 to 50 years ago have held onto their traditional social and religious beliefs but their relatives who remained in their home land have evolved.

Children born here from immigrant families have a much stricter upbringing than their relatives who came here a generation or two later.

I'm still trying to find someone who can tell me what the religious significance is of the clothing worn by different religious groups.

Once again I'm running late so I'll get back to you after I start this work week.

[hortysir]

I can only speak to the Pentacostal women, and maybe the Homish or Quakers.
For a woman to cut her is to cut her 'glory'. That's why alot of Pentacost women keep there hair so long. Often it's in a bun because it gets hard to manage.
As you get into the Homish or Quakers, they've went a step further into keeping her head covered as a sign of humbling themselves before the Lord.
I can only assume the Burqa has similar origins.
The statement that the Burqa's sole purpose is to degrade women can only be accepted as fact if it is stated by LilMissPurrfect.
But a single Muslim woman, living in America (without the constraints of a controlling male) has the choice to wear it or not...
It is not prehistoric of me to allow her that choice.
So often, in here, I've been chided with statements similar to "if it was a Muslim, would you still feel the same way?".
My stance here is the response to that.
What's next? Are we going to have Jewish elders shave their beards so others may feel safer? They might be hiding a kosher hot dog in there, you know!!
Just another case of "Western" society trying to get others to conform.....

[indianajoe]

Originally Posted by Flynn

LMP

I've noticed the same thing about immigrants.

Greeks and Italians who emigrated here 30 to 50 years ago have held onto their traditional social and religious beliefs but their relatives who remained in their home land have evolved.

Children born here from immigrant families have a much stricter upbringing than their relatives who came here a generation or two later.

I'm still trying to find someone who can tell me what the religious significance is of the clothing worn by different religious groups.

Once again I'm running late so I'll get back to you after I start this work week.

it might be there is no religious significance but rather just symbol... away of identifying one with a particular religion. Kind of like.. a cowboy doesnt look like a cowboy without a cowboy hat.

[indianajoe]

While I was in Bangladesh I asked my son in law to take me to clothing stores so that I could buy clothes that were more traditional bangladeshi..
We went and got a few items.. one thing was missing to me.. it was the Taqiyah (cap)
He told me I might not want to have one because it was an outward symbol of being devout Muslim to some and thus unless I was Muslim , SOME would view my wearing it as disrepectful. So I bought one but did not wear it.
A hadith in the books of Abu Dawood and Tirmidhi quotes Muhammad as saying, "The distinction between us and the polytheists is the turbans over our caps."

[LilMissPurrfect]

FLYNN.


I live in a Western country. And i have noticed that the last few years more and more Muslims start to wear traditional clothing..while before only a few elderly ladies from lets say Turkey or Morocco wore them. Young women and girls did not even wear a veil. Are they getting more religious all of sudden? I personally doubt that very much...as the rest of their appearance and attitude is not so very Muslim like.

I think for a lot of young girls and women it's either more a political statement...a fashion thing.....or either to belong to a group..you know...what most teens want. I think only a very little group of them is wearing the veil for the right reason.



HortySir.

This thread is about why France wants to ban the burqa....or if the burqa should be banned in the western world?.....Actually its funny....as there is only a very small group who wears it here.....and in a lot of Muslim countries like Turkey, Tunisia and Egypt the Burqa and Niqab is already banned.

If that single Muslim woman, living in America (without the constraints of a controlling male) that you gave as an example wants to wear a burqa then I think she has a huge problem. Where will she find and income? How big are her chances that she will find a job? And if she finds one...how can she fullfil the requirement to pray 5 times a day at fixed times during the day? It's just not logical. then she should ask herself if she is living in the right country?

The koran says that a good Muslima should cover up except for her face and hands. They can wear a Hijab, Shayla, Chador, Khimar, Al-Amira,...there are so many choices. And all these clothes are pretty much accepted in the Western world.....so why burqa or Niqab?

In Afghanistan women are getting killed for accidently showing their ankles. Right now in Tehran young students are killed because they fight and protest because they do not agree with the outcome of the election. They want more freedom....

Sure....Muslima's in the west have the choice to wear what they want.... but in my opinion...(but that's just my opinion) they are placing themself outside the society.

can you tell this is a sensitive subject for me?

[hortysir]

Originally Posted by LilMissPurrfect

FLYNN.


I live in a Western country. And i have noticed that the last few years more and more Muslims start to wear traditional clothing..while before only a few elderly ladies from lets say Turkey or Morocco wore them. Young women and girls did not even wear a veil. Are they getting more religious all of sudden? I personally doubt that very much...as the rest of their appearance and attitude is not so very Muslim like.

I think for a lot of young girls and women it's either more a political statement...a fashion thing.....or either to belong to a group..you know...what most teens want. I think only a very little group of them is wearing the veil for the right reason.



HortySir.

This thread is about why France wants to ban the burqa....or if the burqa should be banned in the western world?.....Actually its funny....as there is only a very small group who wears it here.....and in a lot of Muslim countries like Turkey, Tunisia and Egypt the Burqa and Niqab is already banned.

If that single Muslim woman, living in America (without the constraints of a controlling male) that you gave as an example wants to wear a burqa then I think she has a huge problem. Where will she find and income? How big are her chances that she will find a job? And if she finds one...how can she fullfil the requirement to pray 5 times a day at fixed times during the day? It's just not logical. then she should ask herself if she is living in the right country?

The koran says that a good Muslima should cover up except for her face and hands. They can wear a Hijab, Shayla, Chador, Khimar, Al-Amira,...there are so many choices. And all these clothes are pretty much accepted in the Western world.....so why burqa or Niqab?

In Afghanistan women are getting killed for accidently showing their ankles. Right now in Tehran young students are killed because they fight and protest because they do not agree with the outcome of the election. They want more freedom....

Sure....Muslima's in the west have the choice to wear what they want.... but in my opinion...(but that's just my opinion) they are placing themself outside the society.

can you tell this is a sensitive subject for me?

Not at all, honestly,....Very knowledgable in the subject matter though!!!
And I've learned alot from your post.
I agree it would be very restraing, in several different ways, for that single Muslim woman to function productively. It is still her choice.
And as much as Flynn or someone else might not like it, it is their PERSONAL choice. PERSONAL being the key word.
Just as some call abortion a PERSONAL choice. I may not like it but it is legal.

[Flynn]

Originally Posted by indianajoe

it might be there is no religious significance but rather just symbol... away of identifying one with a particular religion. Kind of like.. a cowboy doesnt look like a cowboy without a cowboy hat.

It's not hard to guess what religion some people belong to. Orthodox Jews walking to their local synagogue are a standout section of the community.

There can be brainwashing cases put forward about most of the popular religions, some of it is moderate and has little or no effect, there are always those who will take their interpretation to an extreme.

Besides for modesty, religion has no real part of our wardrobe selection. God did not send a message to tell us what colour or what style of clothing we should wear. So far I'm yet to read anthing that suggests that the Hijab is anything more than a practical way to shield yourself from desert sand storms.

Most religions use black cloth when acknowledging a persons death, it is part of the grieving process, I prefer bright colours myself but that comes down to my personal choice.

I have no idea why Muslim women not only have to completely cover up, I have no idea why they have to wear heavy BLACK, cloth, cassocks. There are other forms of clothing that reveal nothing of the human shape.

A good example is the clothing worn by Mid Eastern men, cool WHITE cotton loose fitting garments that allow the body to breathe and stay cool. The Hijab and other religious garments are inventions of man not God.

Members are talking about freedom of choice, what they don't acknowledge is most people who are subjected to such treatment are not free to choose their own life style.

Freedom of choice also means some of these young Muslim women are also free to be circumcised against their will !

[LilMissPurrfect]

Originally Posted by hortysir

Not at all, honestly,....Very knowledgable in the subject matter though!!!
And I've learned alot from your post.
I agree it would be very restraing, in several different ways, for that single Muslim woman to function productively. It is still her choice.
And as much as Flynn or someone else might not like it, it is their PERSONAL choice. PERSONAL being the key word.
Just as some call abortion a PERSONAL choice. I may not like it but it is legal.

I think wearing clothes and having an abortion are 2 very different things.

Yes unfortunately it is her choice.
Like it is also her choice that the society pays for the wellfare she gets because she can't find a job.
Like it is her choice that she pushes female rights 30 yrs back again.
That because of her choice other muslima's might be forced by her husband/father/brother/cousin to also wear a niqab.
That because of her choice...she makes the gap between the muslims and non muslims even bigger than it already is right now.

Don't forget this thread is about the banning of the burqa in France.
It's not like there is one or two muslims in a town.
A city like Paris....has like many European cities a very big muslim society.
And most of us live like everybody else. We work, go to school, pay taxes, have the same hopes, fear and dreams. We want to live a happy life for us and our children. To build a future. To respect other people no matter what their religion or background is. And i hate to see that a small group who refuse to mingle..who place themself outside the society make problems for others.

To me personally...I think it is a selfish and also a very arrogant (thinking that every men looks at her as a sex object) attitude.

I have a "funny" (actually its very sad) thing to tell.... a few months ago.. I was with some friends at a congress about and for muslima's....and there was a big security and one of the women there was wearing a niqab. That was also the first time i saw someone wearing it.
So I told her that I didn't want her to touch me because i could not see who she was. She lifted her clothing to show me.....and to my surprise it was a blonde very overweighted and not so attractive dutch lady. who converted to Islam........Our first thought was (and i am not proud of it when we laughed about it when we left)..."No wonder you wear a niqab" )
Then my thought was....why in the world..would someone with your background suddenly go so extreme? Who are you trying to convince?

[Flynn]

LMP

It is about President Sarkozy calling for a ban on the Burqa in France but it has wide reaching ramifications.

The way I read it, Sarkozy believes that French society has been based on a set of values that are slightly different to what is acceptable in some Islamic countries and he sees no reason to change the French status quo to suit new commers.

There are only so many concessions a society should make to immigrants. At present Muslims represent around 5% of the French population, they are another minority group demanding to rule the majority.



quote Melik Kaylan, Forbes.com

Enough of trying to be more like each other. It's time to leave the Saudis to their unreconstructed habits as long as they don't bother us by exporting jihad and sharia in our direction. If they do, we have the unfettered right to export Western habits by any and all means to their countries. But we should also have the courage to say to immigrants, "You come here to seek a better life, one that's based on different values and habits from the country you left. We believe our society provides a better, more successful, way of life otherwise you wouldn't be here. Therefore it's up to you to change. That may be painful and demanding, but we will help you in the process through adequate education and color-blind employment opportunities. But change you must."

Shedding the burqa is as good a place to start as any.





It's not so long ago that I was reading posts from American Republicans declaring that people in the Islamic world have been cut off from democracy and the religious advantage of knowing Jesus. One of the reasons for invading Iraq was to give Iraqi's the freedom to become Christians.

I have to wonder if attitudes will change if Burqa wearing women start residing in " Small Town " USA.