Georgia.......

buttercups

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#21
[QUOTE="Itsnotgonnaspankitself..., post: 2419399]haha...and Bravo to you, my dear lady... :sigh:[/QUOTE]

lol! Why Thank you very much. :bigsmile:
 

Flynn

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#22
It was more a statement about Americans always being too slow to get off the mark.

It's like lecturing to a remedial studies class discussing current affairs with Americans.

The rest of the world is always explaining to American what happened after the fact because America with all it's super sleuthing is useless when it come to predicting things like a war between Georgia and Russia. Lets face it, the American anti terror units could not even predict a catastrophe like 9/11.

American's always turn up after the fact, they are not into preventative measures, it's always after the blood flows that American wants to get involved.



[/SIZE]

quote

NPR.org, August 8, 2008 ·


Russia sent tanks and warplanes into the former Soviet republic of Georgia on Friday after Georgia launched a military offensive to retake its breakaway province, South Ossetia.

A large number of civilians were reported dead as a result of the military action by Georgia and Russia in the worst outbreak of violence since South Ossetia won de facto independence from Georgia in 1992. Figures of the number killed vary widely from hundreds to more than a thousand. The region encompasses about 50,000 people.

Russia had hundreds of peacekeeping troops already in South Ossetia before Friday's events and said 10 of its peacekeepers were killed in fierce fighting. Georgia said 30 of its soldiers were killed by Russian artillery in the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali.





President GW Bush had a meeting with the Russian President a week before this current round of hostilities.

Why didn't the American defence team know prior to Russia invading that they had amassed it's forces on the Georgian border ?

All American defence and anti terror units had to do was watch CNN and they would have known about the troop build up.

The war between Russia and Georgia has nothing to do with America, your troops and advice should be kept within America's own boundaries.


 

buttercups

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#23
It was more a statement about Americans always being too slow to get off the mark.

It's like lecturing to a remedial studies class discussing current affairs with Americans.

The rest of the world is always explaining to American what happened after the fact because America with all it's super sleuthing is useless when it come to predicting things like a war between Georgia and Russia. Lets face it, the American anti terror units could not even predict a catastrophe like 9/11.

American's always turn up after the fact, they are not into preventative measures, it's always after the blood flows that American wants to get involved.



[/SIZE]

quote

NPR.org, August 8, 2008 ·


Russia sent tanks and warplanes into the former Soviet republic of Georgia on Friday after Georgia launched a military offensive to retake its breakaway province, South Ossetia.

A large number of civilians were reported dead as a result of the military action by Georgia and Russia in the worst outbreak of violence since South Ossetia won de facto independence from Georgia in 1992. Figures of the number killed vary widely from hundreds to more than a thousand. The region encompasses about 50,000 people.

Russia had hundreds of peacekeeping troops already in South Ossetia before Friday's events and said 10 of its peacekeepers were killed in fierce fighting. Georgia said 30 of its soldiers were killed by Russian artillery in the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali.





President GW Bush had a meeting with the Russian President a week before this current round of hostilities.

Why didn't the American defence team know prior to Russia invading that they had amassed it's forces on the Georgian border ?

All American defence and anti terror units had to do was watch CNN and they would have known about the troop build up.

The war between Russia and Georgia has nothing to do with America, your troops and advice should be kept within America's own boundaries.



How could anyone predict what happened on 9/11? I'd like to see any country that could.
I do agree with you that America should stay out of the Russia and Georgia war.
Too many of our troops are getting killed as it is to have more sent to other countries. And I know that there are people that get killed in any war on both sides.
I think that our governtment should concentrate more on what is going on over here and less elsewhere
 

Flynn

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#24



Of course Americans couldn't predict an exact date for the 9/11 disaster Buttercups.

It's the event itself that the American Intelligence ( what an oxymoron that is...... American Intelligence ! ) failed to warn it’s own people about.

Are you forgetting that there were airports in America prior to 9/11 that agreed to train potential pilots to fly but not land a plane ?


 

buttercups

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#25
Of course Americans couldn't predict an exact date for the 9/11 disaster Buttercups.

It's the event itself that the American Intelligence ( what an oxymoron that is...... American Intelligence ! ) failed to warn it’s own people about.

Are you forgetting that there were airports in America prior to 9/11 that agreed to train potential pilots to fly but not land a plane ?


[/SIZE]

Maybe I sound ignorant but my question is how could anyone at any time predict something so horrifying happening?
I did not know anything about any pilots being trained to fly but not land.
I don't pretend to understand what any government does. It is just recently that i have even started getting interested in it.
I am heading off to bed now .
I will be back tomorrow.
Have a good night or day Flynn.

I am interested in knowing more about these planes.
 

buttercups

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#26
Okay I left but had to come back on for a minute to post this.
About these airports that were supposed to train pilots to fly a plane but not land.
Are you saying that they were being trained for suicide missions?
If that is the case then I would really like to know where you got your information because it wasnt Americans that flew into the World Trade Center and it isnt Americans that are planting dynamite or some explosives to themselves and killing innocent people.
Our government (like any government) may have it's faults but that isnt one of them.
Now I am going to bed.
 

Flynn

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#27
From Mark Potter and Rich Phillips
CNN Miami Bureau

MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- Six months to the day after Mohamed Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi flew planes into the World Trade Center, the Immigration and Naturalization Service notified a Venice, Florida, flight school that the two men had been approved for student visas.

Rudi Dekkers of Huffman Aviation, where Atta, 33, and Al-Shehhi, 23, first trained in July 2000, showed the yellow INS forms to CNN during an interview Monday. Dekkers said he was surprised to get the forms at such a late date.

The INS had a different reaction.

"I think it is certainly embarrassing that the letters show up at this late date," said INS spokesman Russ Bergeron. "It does serve to illustrate what we have been saying since 1995 -- that the current system for collecting information and tracking foreign students is antiquated, outdated, inaccurate and untimely."

Bergeron said the INS forms made it clear that actual approval of the visas took place before the September 11 attacks.

Former INS District Director Tom Fischer told CNN that "the letters should never have been sent." Their delivery, he said, was "a case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand was doing."

The M-1 student visa request forms for Atta and al-Shehhi were filed by Huffman Aviation on August 29, 2000.

The forms asked that the men, who had entered the United States on tourist visas, be allowed to change their visa status so they could take a $27,300 professional pilot program that would last from September 1, 2000, until September 1 the next year.

The student visa requests were actually granted months later -- on July 17, 2001, for Atta, and August 9, 2001, for al-Shehhi -- but postmarks indicate the letters of notification were only sent out to Huffman Aviation last week. They were received Monday, the six-month milestone of last year's terror attacks.

The INS said it sent notification to the two men of their visa status change shortly after the requests were approved. Flight schools, Bergeron said, are routinely last to be notified.

The letters to Huffman Aviation were sent from the INS Student Processing Center run by ACS Inc. in London, Kentucky.

On October 25, 2001, the INS awarded ACS a contract to begin helping the federal agency "process the arrival and departure forms of foreign students, businessmen, and tourists visiting the United States," according to an ACS news release from that time.

Leslie Poole, ACS' vice president, said part of the company's job involves helping the INS clear up its backlog. However, she said ACS only processed requests from the INS and played no role in screening any information.

-- CNN Producer Henry Schuster contributed to this report.
 

Iceman

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#28
It was more a statement about Americans always being too slow to get off the mark.

It's like lecturing to a remedial studies class discussing current affairs with Americans.

The rest of the world is always explaining to American what happened after the fact because America with all it's super sleuthing is useless when it come to predicting things like a war between Georgia and Russia. Lets face it, the American anti terror units could not even predict a catastrophe like 9/11.

American's always turn up after the fact, they are not into preventative measures, it's always after the blood flows that American wants to get involved.

Let your little ol kangaroo infested island get their ass in trouble and I bet America is the first one you'll holler at for help..Dammit Flynn, you can't post a thing without badmouthing America in some way..You seem to have an obsession for running us down. I hope Australia does need our help some day and we tell you'll to go to hell..
 

Iceman

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#31
[QUOTE="Flynn, post: 2419761]


Ice

America and Australia, we are allies !


[/quote]
I realize that, but you sure don't act like it..I sure don't talk trash about my friends like you do..
 
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#32
and more news from the conflict...

TBILISI, Georgia - Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili said Friday that he had signed a cease-fire agreement with Russia, but that he would "never, ever surrender" in a showdown with Moscow over two pro-Russia separatist regions.

Saakashvili, who said the deal protects the former Soviet republic's interests despite concessions to Russia, also accused the West of inviting Russian aggression. He spoke to a joint news conference with U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

Saakashvili, speaking hours after President Bush in Washington demanded Russia get out of Georgia, said that his country would never be reconciled to losing any of its territory to Russia.

Earlier, Bush said the people in Georgia have cast their lot with the free world and “we will not cast them aside.” Speaking in Washington, he said that “bullying and intimidation are not acceptable ways to conduct foreign policy in the 21st century.”

The president said the Cold War is over and that a contentious relationship with the United States is not in Russia's interests. Bush said "bullying and intimidation are not acceptable ways to conduct foreign policy in the 21st century."

Russia's intentions unclear
Meantime, Russian troops allowed some humanitarian supplies into the city of Gori but kept up their blockade of the strategically located city, raising doubts about Russia’s intentions in the war-battered country.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said that Georgia’s two separatist regions, South Ossetia and Abkhazia, were unlikely to ever be parts of the country again.

On Friday, Russian military vehicles were blocking the eastern road into the city of Gori, although they allowed in one Georgia bus filled with loaves of bread. Gori is on the country’s main east-west highway about 45 miles west of the capital, Tbilisi. By holding it, Russian forces effectively cut Georgia in half.

What happens in Gori is key to when — or if — Russia will honor the terms of a cease-fire that calls for both sides to pull their forces back to the positions they held before fighting broke out last week in the separatist region of South Ossetia.

“It’s quiet there, but now there are problems with food,” said Alexander Lomaia, the head of Georgia’s national security council. He said he was able to tour the city during the night.

Russian forces also are in several other cities deep in Georgia, including the Black Sea port city of Poti, officials say. But Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said Friday that there are no Russian troops in the city of Kutaisi, Georgia’s second-largest city, despite reports they were headed in that direction overnight.


Uncertainty about Russia’s intentions and back-and-forth charges has clouded the conflict days after Russia and Georgia signaled acceptance of a French-brokered cease-fire, and a week after Georgia’s crackdown on the two provinces drew a Russian military response.

Effort to finalize truce
Diplomats focused on finalizing the fragile truce between the two nations and clearing the way for Russian withdrawal. The deal would require major Georgian concessions, but Rice said the deal protects Georgia’s interests.

The plan calls for the immediate withdrawal of Russian combat troops from Georgia, but allows Russian peacekeepers who were in South Ossetia violence erupted of violence to remain and take a greater role there.

Amid the intense diplomatic activity, tensions increased between Moscow and Washington after the U.S. and Poland struck a deal Thursday to install a missile defense facility in the ex-communist state.

Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn said Friday the agreement exposes Poland to attack, possibly by nuclear weapons, the Interfax news agency reported.


The United States says its missile defense system is aimed at blocking attacks by rogue nations. Moscow, however, feels it is aimed at Russia’s missile force.


Also Friday, Human Rights Watch said in a report that it has collected evidence of Russian warplanes using cluster bomb against civilian areas in Georgia. The international rights group urged Russia to stop using the weapons, which more than 100 nations have agreed to outlaw.

The group said Russian military aircraft killed at least 11 civilians and injured dozens in the town of Gori and the village of Ruisi. Russia’s Defense Ministry denied the claim, the ITAR-Tass news agency reported, citing an unnamed official who complained that the organization gathered the information from biased witnesses.

Georgian officials accused Russia of sending a column of tanks and other armored vehicles toward Kutaisi, the second-largest city in Georgia, then said the convey stopped about 35 miles out.


“We have no idea what they’re doing there, why the movement, where they’re going,” Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze said in a telephone briefing. “One explanation could be they are trying to rattle the civilian population.”

The U.S. said a move toward Kutaisi would be a matter of great concern, but two defense officials told The Associated Press the Pentagon did not detect any major movement by Russia troops or tanks. There was no immediate response from Russia.

“I think the world should think very carefully about what is going on here,” Saakashvili said. “We need to stop everything that can be stopped now.”

Relief supplies land in Tbilisi
As the military and diplomatic battles played out, relief planes swooped into Tbilisi with tons of supplies for the estimated 100,000 people uprooted by the fighting.

“We’re in a difficult situation, but our government is helping us,” said Zhozhona Gogidze, who was living at a camp on the outskirts of Tbilisi. “You know I am very ashamed, we don’t have a kopeck left and I’m so hungry.”

U.S. officials said their two planes carried cots, blankets, medicine and surgical supplies — but the Russians insinuated that the United States, a Georgia ally, might have sent in military aid as well. U.S. officials rejected the claim.

Even as the relief rolled in, U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon warned the fighting and lawlessness was keeping it from reaching large parts of Georgia. In some places, relief officials were overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of refugees.
 
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#33
You know, I hate to say this...but I kinda saw this all coming a long time ago...I didn't know what form it would take, or when it would start...but I remember reading in the news about how ol' Dubya invited Putin down to his ranch (at Camp David, I believe)...and personally barbecued them both a steak dinner...you know, real buddy-buddy like.

I remember mentally flagging that because, for one, I have a serious distrust for George Dubya Bush (after all that has happened under his watch), and I didn't really know that much about Putin, other than what the North American media had chosen to spew forth up until that time, which made him look rather sinister (which he may or may not be...).

I think another thing that ran through my mind was how the Bush family and the Bin Laden family were good friends (and maybe still are) prior to the 9/11 incident...you just don't hear much about Osama Bin Laden (or the Bin Laden family) these days....well, except from Barrack Obama, who I believe said he would hunt Osama Bin Laden down...despite the fact that Osama Bin Laden doesn't have any oil...pffft...silly Democrats.

Anyways, it got me thinking; what mutually advantageous schemes would ol' Dubya be cooking up with Putin?

The next thing you know, old Putin is taking off his shirt for the Russian media and showing off his muscles (literally and figuratively...and the dude's actually pretty ripped for an old politician) on some fly-fishing trip...then, we hear in the North American media how Russia has "resumed its Tu-95 Bear bomber patrol flights"...which was an old Cold War routine. Well, we were to believe that Russia was stepping up its game, but what I heard from a pilot in the US Airforce (as well as read in a book) was that this had never stopped, and that the pilots of both countries would usually just exchange pleasantries (a handwave or a salute, I guess) as they were intercepting the bombers...apparently it kinda just became an old routine for both sides.

The difference now was that the North American media chose (or maybe was told) to start hyping it up again. Bush has used fearmongering before, which eventually lead to warmongering, and it worked with great effect in leading up to the invasion of Iraq.

So why not start a new Cold War?

It would benefit the Russians, in that Putin (a former KGB agent) would probably love to see Russia restored to its old glory, and to regain their "superpower" status, and this would give them an excuse to do so.
And now Russia, boistered by a strong economy, actually has the means to see it through.

It would benefit the Americans (and especially the Bush administration, and possibly McCain) by creating a reason to actually almost justify their incredibly bloated military budget, as well as create a diversion from all the problems that the Bush administration was responsible for...a little bit of "smoke and mirrors", if you will. This would give Bush an opportunity to go out with a bang (though hopefully, not literally...), and sort of save face from all his previous debacles.

It would also give the Republican party an image boost, which they so desperately need right now, and not only that...but who are you going to trust your country to on the eve of this new crisis...?

A down-home, tell-it-like-it-is, god-appointed, good patriotic *cough*white*cough* guy...who has previous war experience...?

OR

Some namby-pamby, well-spoken, America-hating *cough*black*cough* man...who's pastor was racist, and who himself would betray his country and his military by pulling "the troops" out of Iraq and bringing them home to their families...the bastard! (or whatever other crap the extreme right has been slinging about Obama these days)...

I think the choice is clear. And white. And pro-conflict.



But all kidding aside, this totally sucks, because I believe we're being led down the primrose path...yet again.

I guess only time will tell.
 

buttercups

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#34
[QUOTE="Flynn, post: 2419717]From Mark Potter and Rich Phillips
CNN Miami Bureau

MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- Six months to the day after Mohamed Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi flew planes into the World Trade Center, the Immigration and Naturalization Service notified a Venice, Florida, flight school that the two men had been approved for student visas.

Rudi Dekkers of Huffman Aviation, where Atta, 33, and Al-Shehhi, 23, first trained in July 2000, showed the yellow INS forms to CNN during an interview Monday. Dekkers said he was surprised to get the forms at such a late date.

The INS had a different reaction.

"I think it is certainly embarrassing that the letters show up at this late date," said INS spokesman Russ Bergeron. "It does serve to illustrate what we have been saying since 1995 -- that the current system for collecting information and tracking foreign students is antiquated, outdated, inaccurate and untimely."

Bergeron said the INS forms made it clear that actual approval of the visas took place before the September 11 attacks.

Former INS District Director Tom Fischer told CNN that "the letters should never have been sent." Their delivery, he said, was "a case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand was doing."

The M-1 student visa request forms for Atta and al-Shehhi were filed by Huffman Aviation on August 29, 2000.

The forms asked that the men, who had entered the United States on tourist visas, be allowed to change their visa status so they could take a $27,300 professional pilot program that would last from September 1, 2000, until September 1 the next year.

The student visa requests were actually granted months later -- on July 17, 2001, for Atta, and August 9, 2001, for al-Shehhi -- but postmarks indicate the letters of notification were only sent out to Huffman Aviation last week. They were received Monday, the six-month milestone of last year's terror attacks.

The INS said it sent notification to the two men of their visa status change shortly after the requests were approved. Flight schools, Bergeron said, are routinely last to be notified.

The letters to Huffman Aviation were sent from the INS Student Processing Center run by ACS Inc. in London, Kentucky.

On October 25, 2001, the INS awarded ACS a contract to begin helping the federal agency "process the arrival and departure forms of foreign students, businessmen, and tourists visiting the United States," according to an ACS news release from that time.

Leslie Poole, ACS' vice president, said part of the company's job involves helping the INS clear up its backlog. However, she said ACS only processed requests from the INS and played no role in screening any information.

-- CNN Producer Henry Schuster contributed to this report.[/QUOTE]


And this proves? I stand by my statement that there is just no way America or any country could have had any idea that something so horrifying like 9/11 could have happened.
 
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#35
[QUOTE="buttercups, post: 2420507]And this proves? I stand by my statement that there is just no way America or any country could have had any idea that something so horrifying like 9/11 could have happened.[/QUOTE]

Actually, the CIA sent the White House intelligence saying that it was likely to happen...before the incident happened...I can't remember exactly how long before at the moment (and I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment)...and then AFTER they got the CIA memo, Bush decided to downsize the homeland security, or cut funding to the department that would have overseen preparations taken to prevent such things from happening.

There are people that believe Bush had explicit knowledge of the 9/11 incident prior to it happening, and the fact that they didn't detain any of the Bin Laden family members who were residing in America (and Canada too, I think?) for questioning AFTER it had happened absolutely infuriated some Americans (and many non-Americans).

Especially in light of the fact that after that, Bush wanted free-reign to tap ordinary normal American civillians' phone calls and such...and apparently, he did just that...and used his "war on terror" excuse to try to justify his unjust actions.
 

buttercups

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#36
[QUOTE="Itsnotgonnaspankitself..., post: 2420573]Actually, the CIA sent the White House intelligence saying that it was likely to happen...before the incident happened...I can't remember exactly how long before at the moment (and I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment)...and then AFTER they got the CIA memo, Bush decided to downsize the homeland security, or cut funding to the department that would have overseen preparations taken to prevent such things from happening.

There are people that believe Bush had explicit knowledge of the 9/11 incident prior to it happening, and the fact that they didn't detain any of the Bin Laden family members who were residing in America (and Canada too, I think?) for questioning AFTER it had happened absolutely infuriated some Americans (and many non-Americans).

Especially in light of the fact that after that, Bush wanted free-reign to tap ordinary normal American civillians' phone calls and such...and apparently, he did just that...and used his "war on terror" excuse to try to justify his unjust actions.[/QUOTE]

I didnt realize that!
Then I have to apologize to Flynn because I didnt know this.
I havent been up on it too much until recently!
 
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#37
[QUOTE="buttercups, post: 2420587]I didnt realize that!
Then I have to apologize to Flynn because I didnt know this.
I havent been up on it too much until recently![/QUOTE]

Well, that may not be entirely your fault...so please, don't apologize just yet...plus, it's Flynn, and it will just go straight to his head.

I think that the media has played a large part in the Bush administration cover-ups, and so I almost have to say *thank god* for the internet...sure, you kinda have to fish around to find info, but it's usually out there somewhere.

If you just watch tv or read the papers, each news channel (or paper) will have its own political slant. I find that it's actually good to read stories from both sides, and then try to filter out the BS of each...and then look online for other sources, to see if you can find a source that hasn't been bought by one side or the other...haha...though I'm not sure if there are many of them out there.

So, yeah...you may just be hearing what they (the Bush admin) wants you to hear...so I wouldn't beat yourself up for not having heard that...but that's just me.

Plus, it takes courage to say "I don't know" these days...and I think too many people just try to B.S. their way through answers instead....so kudos to you! ;)

And kudos to you for taking more of an interest in it, and getting further informed...well-informed citizens are a dishonest politician's worst nightmare! (IMO)
 

buttercups

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#38
[QUOTE="Itsnotgonnaspankitself..., post: 2420609]Well, that may not be entirely your fault...so please, don't apologize just yet...plus, it's Flynn, and it will just go straight to his head.

I think that the media has played a large part in the Bush administration cover-ups, and so I almost have to say *thank god* for the internet...sure, you kinda have to fish around to find info, but it's usually out there somewhere.

If you just watch tv or read the papers, each news channel (or paper) will have its own political slant. I find that it's actually good to read stories from both sides, and then try to filter out the BS of each...and then look online for other sources, to see if you can find a source that hasn't been bought by one side or the other...haha...though I'm not sure if there are many of them out there.

So, yeah...you may just be hearing what they (the Bush admin) wants you to hear...so I wouldn't beat yourself up for not having heard that...but that's just me.

Plus, it takes courage to say "I don't know" these days...and I think too many people just try to B.S. their way through answers instead....so kudos to you! ;)

And kudos to you for taking more of an interest in it, and getting further informed...well-informed citizens are a dishonest politician's worst nightmare! (IMO)[/QUOTE]

Oooo! You are right! Don't need anything more going to his head than is already there! :)
I am going to do some fishing so I can be better informed about things. It just makes you sick to think of what else they might have covered up!
Thank you for letting me know this
LOL! Thank you! I have never been very good at B.S !
 
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#39
[QUOTE="buttercups, post: 2420621]Oooo! You are right! Don't need anything more going to his head than is already there! :)
I am going to do some fishing so I can be better informed about things. It just makes you sick to think of what else they might have covered up!
Thank you for letting me know this
LOL! Thank you! I have never been very good at B.S ![/QUOTE]

Well, I must give Flynn credit for being fairly well informed on his little rock down there...it's too bad he just can't choose to do something more positive with his time. Oh well...no worries...it's all just the internet, after all.

But, yeah...I know what you mean by the "makes you sick" part. I mean, I don't even live in the States, and I was bloody well furious at first...and still am, but I also feel a little like there isn't much I can do about it. And that sucks...
 

indianajoe

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#40
Flynn is only ONE Australian.. his views of America are his own .. but they are not new..pick any country who is an ally to the US and you'll easily find ONE person who has same disposition as Flynn..
I dont think Flynn hates Americans as much as he hates America's policies..and even I as an American can say Im always pleased about my country's way of "doing business" in the world