To bake or not to bake

squirt

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#21
but that's allowed, because "asshole" isn't a race, religion, or sexual preference lol
 

roadkill

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#23
thats a tough one to think about what would i do in the baker's shoes?
i believe we are to hate the sin but love the sinner
the baker is running a public service and by law can not discriminate..but his religious beliefs
are he is not going to support such an event..he did not refuse service to them because he did not have them removed from his bakery and was willing to sell them anything in the store..he just wasnt going to make something
that was not already on the shelves..which in my opinion is fine


i believe the couple have no right to demand something from someone just because their feelings are hurt
the couple has made it all about them and their 15 minutes of fame in the news
i stand with the baker on this..it isnt just some birthday cake he refused to make
this cake represents the joining of 2 people for life and is perfectly in his right to refuse to make it
his only mistake was telling the couple why instead of just saying he was too busy to make it


the issue i see is the lack of tolerence from that couple..they can live as they want as long as it doesnt cause harm to others..well by making this a legal issue they are causing harm to that baker's reputation..they should have just gone to another baker that would be willing to make it..i am sure someone in their circle would be able to help the couple out

tolerence has to go both ways or it doesn't work
The decision is in: the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the baker, in a righteous 7 to 2 ruling
they determined that the state of Colorado was antagonistic in its approach to the baker, that it did not take into account the right of the baker to not participate in activities, such as a wedding, that conflict with his religious beliefs
the narrow ruling is not a win for religious liberty, nor is it a ruling against LGBT rights
the Court did not address general rights, it only addressed the rights of the Colorado baker, in that the Court felt like the baker's rights were violated by how the state of Colorado treated him
there are still legal disputes headed to America's highest court that involve florists, video producers, and graphic artists
Justice Anthony Kennedy said in his majority opinion that the larger issue "must await further elaboration" in the courts


I don't understand how or why it came to this, the baker was willing to sell them anything in the store, he was willing to compromise, but the gay couple decided it was going to force him to do the one thing he didn't want to do
they could've easily went to another baker, that's the beauty of the free market, we have choices
I accept that the gay couple has the right to get married

the gay couple needs to accept that I have the right to not participate in their happy event, nor will I insist they participate in mine
i should be on the supreme court...lol
their decision was based on exactly what i said back in December...lmfao
 

Vinnie

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#24
I'd like to see how this decision interacts with anti racism legislation. Is it against my religion to bake a cake for a mixed race couple? To rent a house to one? To give one s job?
I'm sure it must be more nuanced than that.
 

squirt

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#25
is it? against your religion?

for me, the answer is no ... I expect that's the answer for most people
I don't expect such an issue to ever come up

I read an article about one lesson that can be learned from this decision, and that's honesty may not be the best policy
if the baker had simply told the couple that he was booked up, he could have saved himself a lot of grief

but it was his faith that made him tell the truth
 

Vinnie

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#26
No it is not against MY religion, but how are you to determine whether it is? This is something I am sure will have been considered carefully. I'll be interested In reading the full opinion.
 

roadkill

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#27
religion for the most part is based on scriptures and the interpretation of them i believe..so with that said...show me a scripture that refers to your questions and its there where you will find your answers

the bakers religion from what i understand is based on the holy bible..it clearly states that homosexuality is an abomination to God
thus makes baking a cake for them against his religion and faith...as it was stated...he didnt throw them out of the store and was willing to sell them one already on the shelf..its the couple who were intolerant...not the baker
 

Tsalagi

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#28
And they drove 150 miles past innumerable bakers to target this specific baker. They weren't wanting a cake, but a big cash settlement!
 

squirt

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#29
but they're not going easy on the Masterpiece baker either, wondering "what if" an interracial couple or inter-religious couple would be turned away
No it is not against MY religion, but how are you to determine whether it is? This is something I am sure will have been considered carefully. I'll be interested In reading the full opinion.
you're not the only one to raise the question, the justices did
see, that's the problem with this particular ruling, it did nothing to address when religious liberty meets non-discrimination *laws*
it was VERY narrow in it's approach, dealing only with how the state treated the baker
they said the larger issue would have to await further elaboration from the lower courts

personally, I think it was a chicken sh*t ruling
 

squirt

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#30
one of the cases coming up the pike is an orchard farmer, every year he takes his apples and apple pies to the farmer's market, and he's been doing so for years
the privately owned orchard is a lovely spot for a wedding, and the farmer does allow heterosexual couples to get married on his property
the government is trying to force him to allow same sex weddings, and in their effort, banned him from the farmer's market
does the government have the authority to tell you what you can and cannot do on your own property?

I can see this one making it to the Supreme Court
 

Vinnie

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#31
Yes the government does have the ability and sometimes the duty to control what you can and cannot do with your property. Consider the dumping of toxic waste on you land that then runs off. The question is how far does this power extend.
 

Vinnie

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#32
Take this verse:

Deuteronomy 7:2-5 When the Lord your God hands these nations over to you and you conquer them, you must completely destroy them. Make no treaties with them and show them no mercy. You must not intermarry with them.

Does this mean that as a practicing Christian I can refuse to cooperate inns marriage between a black and a white person? Does it only restrict me if I wish to marry someone from another country (England! Gasp!)

Who is to say my faith and not my racism restricts me?
Am I allowed to refuse to bake a cake for someone who wears clothes of mixed fibers? Or who works in the Sabbath? For that matter, what is the Sabbath, Saturday or Sunday?
These are all questions that, unless carefully stated, this decision brings back into play.
 

roadkill

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#33
Take this verse:

Deuteronomy 7:2-5 When the Lord your God hands these nations over to you and you conquer them, you must completely destroy them. Make no treaties with them and show them no mercy. You must not intermarry with them.

Does this mean that as a practicing Christian I can refuse to cooperate inns marriage between a black and a white person? Does it only restrict me if I wish to marry someone from another country (England! Gasp!)

Who is to say my faith and not my racism restricts me?
Am I allowed to refuse to bake a cake for someone who wears clothes of mixed fibers? Or who works in the Sabbath? For that matter, what is the Sabbath, Saturday or Sunday?
These are all questions that, unless carefully stated, this decision brings back into play.
you also have the answers..whether you want to follow the law or not..its your choice..free will
 

Tsalagi

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#34
That law was written for the Israelites entering the promised land. God knew that if they moved in without restrictions that they would intermarry with idol worshippers and lose the faith. Remember that He had rescued them from 400 years of slavery, fed them manna daily for 40 years, and provided the means to worship Him in the approved manner. When they rebelled, He opened up the earth and swallowed the disobedient.
So I doubt if this law pertains to you.
"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone!" hangs in many restaurants today. So does "no shirt, no shoes, no service." So does "No public bathroom". If you don't like the policy, shop somewhere else!
 

squirt

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#35
Yes the government does have the ability and sometimes the duty to control what you can and cannot do with your property. Consider the dumping of toxic waste on you land that then runs off. The question is how far does this power extend.
that causes harm to others, you're comparing apples to oranges, pun intended
 

squirt

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#36
Take this verse:

Deuteronomy 7:2-5 When the Lord your God hands these nations over to you and you conquer them, you must completely destroy them. Make no treaties with them and show them no mercy. You must not intermarry with them.

Does this mean that as a practicing Christian I can refuse to cooperate inns marriage between a black and a white person? Does it only restrict me if I wish to marry someone from another country (England! Gasp!)

Who is to say my faith and not my racism restricts me?
Am I allowed to refuse to bake a cake for someone who wears clothes of mixed fibers? Or who works in the Sabbath? For that matter, what is the Sabbath, Saturday or Sunday?
These are all questions that, unless carefully stated, this decision brings back into play.
that's the Old Testament, we don't live by those laws anymore, as you well know
Jesus said not to be a stumbling block, if a man decides he wants to observe the Sabbath on a Saturday, or a Sunday, or even a Monday, you're not to tell him he's wrong, the point is that he IS observing the Sabbath
if you do things with love in your heart and Jesus guiding your path, stumbling is reduced to a minimum
*and* as a Christian, we are to follow the laws of the land


as a practicing Christian, your heart should tell you that racism is wrong, our end goal is to be more Christ like
we have centuries of doctrine and Scripture, but I don't recall any of them stating that racism is a fruit of the spirit


as a human being, you should have the right to choose for yourself whether or not you participate in anything
and the government shouldn't be in the business of forcing you to, or punishing you if you don't see things their way
 

squirt

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#38
Define harm. I can't play loud music at 2am although all I am doing is inconveniencing others.
no, you're causing harm by doing that, we all need our sleep, not to mention it's rude
your rights stop where mine start
 

Vinnie

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#39
That law was written for the Israelites entering the promised land. God knew that if they moved in without restrictions that they would intermarry with idol worshippers and lose the faith. Remember that He had rescued them from 400 years of slavery, fed them manna daily for 40 years, and provided the means to worship Him in the approved manner. When they rebelled, He opened up the earth and swallowed the disobedient.
So I doubt if this law pertains to you.
"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone!" hangs in many restaurants today. So does "no shirt, no shoes, no service." So does "No public bathroom". If you don't like the policy, shop somewhere else!
So you get to choose what laws you are going to follow? Oh, I fancy that one but can't be bothered with this one....
 

Vinnie

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#40
no, you're causing harm by doing that, we all need our sleep, not to mention it's rude
your rights stop where mine start
But it's rude to deny that someone else's relationship is somehow less than another's.