What's wrong here?

vixen_dear

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And so you ask what is freedom..what is freedom?

:sly: Freedom



Freedom- Is there man born that lusts not after liberty?

Freedom- Are there anywhere souls who crave not to be free?

Those who would not look up to the sky and to God vow-

One has the right to live one's life the way one chooses how?



Freedom- Man's noblest dream beset with well intent restraints...

Freedom-Is often lost midst " for your own good" refrains...

My freedom taken from me in the name of so called " moral right"

But to what end am I enslaved for someone else's fight?



Liberty "adjusted"- for whatever moral cause, and though they be..

If I have no right to choose, I have not liberty-

If I so choose the path to hell, I alone must so decide....

Else that we call our "liberty" mocks all those who ever died....

For Freedom.



Freedom- Our natural right and yet so new a concept to our human minds!

Freedom-Each owns oneself- so simple an idea- so basic- it defines

All human interaction in that briefest, simple thought-

"To live one's life as each one decides the way one ought"



Freedom- It doesn't give the right to interfere by force or fraud-

Freedom- It is not reserved for those who say they're serving God!

Freedom.......The very word, and all the word implies

Does not assume the one that's free is good or pure or wise!



Liberty is for the brave and strong, the weak and coward too,

And rich and poor alike, the fainthearted and the true-

All can huddle underneath the banner bought and paid for by our blood

All are free to make a choice to live, be it bad or be it good-

It's freedom.

© Norma Jean Almodovar- April, 1986


and may I ask, does that answer your question?

God Bless America, not matter what mistakes! We shall be strong for all!
 

Goofy

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they can take my freedom when they pry it from my cold dead hands :colgate: :colgate: :colgate:
 

Goofy

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But they'll never get my pecker....Cuz that's Laraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa's :hehe: :hehe: :hehe:
 

sewnutzcl1

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:laugh: at Goofy! :laugh: :laugh:
:thumbs-up to all the other great posts!:thumbs-up :thumbs-up
 

Goofy

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Screaminnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng don't mean to correct ya but the ship was the Lusitania not the Andrea Doria (that ship collided with the ship Stockholm in the late 50's). And as for Pearl Harbor well I already covered that. And we were in Vietnam actually as far back as 1948 trying to save Frances ass and her outposts there (which was unsucessful). We had "advisors" as the government called them thruoughout the 50's 60's. So the Gulf Of Tonkin/Pueblo Incident were really mute. We had made our bed there long before and we got our butts kicked cuz the Government wasn't interested in winning just holding on. They wouldn't give up but they didn't try to win either it was just war for wars sake so to speak (cept to the guys who died and served in the field) which I believe was wrong.
Other than that I agree with you. Those serving in the military deserve every Americans thanks and warmest wishes and prayers. But those reservists who chose not to go and actually said "I didn't sign up for this war" I don't believe deserve anything but a kick in the ass!!! They're a disgrace to those who do wear the uniform proudly. And some of these reservists were officers (at least one was a doctor...think of what the military spent on his education and he won't abide by the contract he signed!!!) I feel he should first repay the Military all of the cost that he got from his education or there should be prison time. And he should be barred from practicing medicine (after all he wouldn't have had the education without the military) if he refuses to repay the military. Being an ex-military I would never trust him to be my doctor if he can't abide to his agreement.
 

Goofy

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And speaking of WW1 it showed just how racial discriminative America was. Camp Logan was a outpost near the border with Mexico and since black soldiers were not allowed to fight overseas during the war (at that time 1917 a short while later there was a black company that was able to go) a few of them were shipped there (to Camp Logan) to dig ditches and perform menial labor.
The townspeople were disgusting toward them (as well as the local law enforcement) which boiled over when a black corporal was arrested and beaten for inquiring to local law officials about an incident where they shot at a black soldier. That inspired a riot of the soldiers at the Camp because they feared (and a rumor had spread) that the corporal had been killed at the station. and they marched with weapons toward the town of Huston (which was close by Camp Logan). A white mob went out to stop them and gunfight ensued in which about 5 white townspeople (I think 3 were local police) were killed. The black soldier who started the rumor shot himself after getting back to camp. The Government rounded up all the surviving soldiers and shipped them out. They charged many with up to murder. After all was said and done they hanged 19 of them soldiers without so much as a appeal (I think within 6 weeks after the incident 13 were hanged the other 6 were at another trial shortly thereafter). The relatives of those hanged found out when they were sent the soldiers possessions later (which for some was up to a few months after the soldiers wrote their last letters the night before they were hanged which were included then only and the first the relatives knew of the incident). When they requested to have the bodies shipped back home for decent burials the Government refused and left them where the originally were buried.
I agree the U.S. Government isn't perfect and this is just one blemish on it's record but it's the only Government we have....and want
 

Saz

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Oct 18, 2003
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ok, this is the first time i reallly sit down to read a debate...which was after i read until the 8th post, i realise i can't take it anymore. lolx, i'm juz not a debate-ty person.

Well, generally, what someone did wrong doesn't mean you have to condemn others who are the same race like the guilty one. what wrong decision one's country government did doesn't means its people have to die for it. in every different race and nationality, there are always good and bad guys. one should be more partial and do not anyhow condemn innocents in a fit of anger. No people(except for those murderers and terrorists) deserves to die, either they are americans or other nationalities. we are all humans and we should try to understand and treasure the lives of others...

P.S lolx, i'm crapping again.
 

Saz

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Messages
295
Goofy said:
But they'll never get my pecker....Cuz that's Laraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa's :hehe: :hehe: :hehe:
lolx :D :hehe: can't believe u say that!!!
 

fruit_loops

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Nov 10, 2003
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I hate war. All those inncocent people dying, just because the government tells them too, because they're too wimpy too go out there and settle it face to face with the enemy. You never know what could happen. Why can't we have just peace? I don't want unjust peace, or a just war. I want the two governments to sit down and talk to each other. The most people that would die is two, if it honestly came to that. Besides witch, they're government. would anyone truely honestly miss them? I think that they would have gotten more people at their funeral for sitting down and talking, then ordering people to go to war. I know that I would probably be there, and may be even because someone in government actually had the balls to go out there and do something himself. Without millions of soldier having to protect him. They are even risking breaking their manacured nails! Oh no, that would be bad.
 

rooster

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good post<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/797.gif' border=0></a>
 

rooster

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<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/797.gif' border=0></a>
 
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I agree. I will add I am an Aussie, and throughout history we support America...... whether it is right or wrong.

My belief is that war is totally futile, most wars are based on some religious ideals...... we talk about the muslims.. that is religion..... it's the goverments that get us involved in wars, who make laws, and we, that people, have to follow, during the Vietnam war, we had conscription here in Australia....... so those young men, who at that time didn't even have a right to vote in this country, were sent off to Vietnam, whether they believed in it or not and at that time, there was that social revolution of the 1960's, so we had conscientious objectors who were imprisoned for their beliefs....
I don't even know what I am trying to get at... I guess the futility of it all, looking at Iraq now, and how many American soldiers are being killed over there now, when the "war" is supposedly over... I think the governments have so much to answer for, for the loss of those lives, the war..... I agree that the terrorists should be killed, but not innocent people one either side......

This doesn't make a lot of sense... but... my two cents worth

As Edwin Starr sang in his song War:

"War! - huh- yeah-
[font=Arial,Helvetica]What is it good for?[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Absolutely nothing[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Uh-huh[/font]



[font=Arial,Helvetica]War! – huh – yeah-[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]What is it good for?[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Absolutely nothing[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Say it again y’all[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica]War! – huh – good God[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]What is it good for?[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Absolutely nothing[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Listen to me…[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica]Ohhh… War! I despise[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Because it means destruction’[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Of innocent lives[/font]


[font=Arial,Helvetica]War means tears[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]to thousands of mothers eyes[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]When their sons go to fight[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]and lose their lives[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica]I said - War! Huh – Good God y’all[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]What is it good for?[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Absolutely nothing[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Say it again[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica]War! Whoa, Lord[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]What is it good for[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Absolutely nothing[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Listen to me…[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica]War! It ain’t nothing but a heartbreaker[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]War! Friend only to the undertaker[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]War! It’s an enemy to all mankind[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]The thought of war blows my mind[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica]War has caused unrest in the younger generation[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Induction then destruction-[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Who wants to die?[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica]Ohhh… War – Good God Y’all[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]What is it good for?[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Absolutely nothing[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Say it, Say it, Say it[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica]War! Uh-huh – Yeah - Huh![/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]What is it good for?[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Absolutely nothing[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Listen to me…[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica]War! It ain’t nothing but a heartbreaker[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]War! It’s got one friend, that’s the undertaker[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]War has shattered many a young mans dreams[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Made him disabled bitter and mean[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Life is much to precious to spend fighting wars these days[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]War can’t give life, it can only take it away[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica]War! Huh – Good God y’all[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]What is it good for?[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Absolutely nothing[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Say it again[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica]War! Whoa, Lord[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]What is it good for[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Absolutely nothing[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Listen to me…[/font]


[font=Arial,Helvetica]War! It ain’t nothing but a heartbreaker[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]War! Friend only to the undertaker[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Peace Love and Understanding;[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]tell me, is there no place for them today?[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]They say we must fight to keep our freedom[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]But Lord knows there’s got to be a better way[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica]War! Huh – Good God y’all[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]What is it good for?[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]You tell me[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Say it, Say it, Say it[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]War! Huh – Good God y’all[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]What is it good for?[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Stand up and shout it.[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Nothing![/font] "

and then Uriah Heep:

" When the war is over
Got to get away
Pack my bags to
No place in no time no day
You and I, we used
Each other's shoulder
Still so young
But somehow so much older
How can I go home
And not get blown away

Ain't nobody gonna
Steal this heart away

When the war is over
Got to start again
Try to hold a trace of
What it was back then
You and I, we shared
Each other's stories
Just a page that's
Lost in all its glory
How can I go home
And not get blown away

You and I had our sights
Set on something
Hope this doesn't mean
Our days are numbered
I've got plans for more
Than a wanted man
All around is chaos and madness
Can't help feeling
Nothing more than sadness
Only choice to face it
The best I can

Ain't nobody gonna
Steal this heart away
And not get blown away ..."

War is destructive to all innocent people no matter which side of the fence you are on!!!!


Saz said:
ok, this is the first time i reallly sit down to read a debate...which was after i read until the 8th post, i realise i can't take it anymore. lolx, i'm juz not a debate-ty person.

Well, generally, what someone did wrong doesn't mean you have to condemn others who are the same race like the guilty one. what wrong decision one's country government did doesn't means its people have to die for it. in every different race and nationality, there are always good and bad guys. one should be more partial and do not anyhow condemn innocents in a fit of anger. No people(except for those murderers and terrorists) deserves to die, either they are americans or other nationalities. we are all humans and we should try to understand and treasure the lives of others...

P.S lolx, i'm crapping again.
 

Patrish

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Wars are an unfortunate by product of the evil men do.

It is never wanted, by man, nor God. (Even if you dont believe in HIM)

But it is necessary to eradicate the evil that lives in society.

Remember that Saddam (Insane) and his sons killed their own ppl. The lives of their society means so little, they had no compassion for strangers. ALL in the name of power.
Much like Hitler. Which also was a warranted need to destroy.

Innocent civilians are always mourned by both sides, but if WE look another way, the killing sprees will continue, and the innocent lives will far out number the casualties of war.

The War to date, has not seen the number of deaths as we had 9/11...............and that was within an hour or so, that many lives have been wiped out.

THINK ABOUT IT.......if we stand by and let them keep going, many many more lives will be consumed...as we sit tight and let it go.

SORRY....but defending yourself is both religiously acceptable and morally correct.

You wouldnt let someone rape you without a fight?
You wouldnt let them beat you up and not defend yourself.

That is what war is and does....it is defense.

Agree or not, at least think about the points I made.

Also ponder....if it were your children that have been killed on a sneak attack...you wouldnt be anything but miserable and seeking answers.

The Military on the other hand....choose to defend us...and for that I am grateful! That is true love, to lay down your life for another.

And Brave!
 
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Messages
910
But that doesn't give anyone the right to discriminate against any person based on their religious, political, race, sexual preference etc......... it wasn't Muslims in general that caused what happened on 9/11, it was terrorists.

Does God say an eye for an eye or forgiive those who sin against us? Turn the other cheek.....

I am not discounting the horror of 9/11 or the Bali bombings or what the people who lost dear ones feel.......

Have any weapons of mass destruction being found in Iraq??? I am not saying Saddam Hussein and his sons were not evil, but the people ( in general) of Iraq aren't evil... nor are the majority of people the world over....

To me, there has to be other ways to deal with evil dictators other than wage war against the country they live in.........

I guess there are huge philosophical arguments to go here, but we would have a post so long...... Like if there is a God, why does he/she allow these people to exist in the first place,... there are so many arguments..... I guess no one is right or wrong in what they believe in relation to this issue.

I admire the soldiers from all the countries that fight in any war, not just Iraq..... but I don't admire any government that send them to fight... call me a child of the 60's.......





Patrish said:
Wars are an unfortunate by product of the evil men do.

It is never wanted, by man, nor God. (Even if you dont believe in HIM)

But it is necessary to eradicate the evil that lives in society.

Remember that Saddam (Insane) and his sons killed their own ppl. The lives of their society means so little, they had no compassion for strangers. ALL in the name of power.
Much like Hitler. Which also was a warranted need to destroy.

Innocent civilians are always mourned by both sides, but if WE look another way, the killing sprees will continue, and the innocent lives will far out number the casualties of war.

The War to date, has not seen the number of deaths as we had 9/11...............and that was within an hour or so, that many lives have been wiped out.

THINK ABOUT IT.......if we stand by and let them keep going, many many more lives will be consumed...as we sit tight and let it go.

SORRY....but defending yourself is both religiously acceptable and morally correct.

You wouldnt let someone rape you without a fight?
You wouldnt let them beat you up and not defend yourself.

That is what war is and does....it is defense.

Agree or not, at least think about the points I made.

Also ponder....if it were your children that have been killed on a sneak attack...you wouldnt be anything but miserable and seeking answers.

The Military on the other hand....choose to defend us...and for that I am grateful! That is true love, to lay down your life for another.

And Brave!
 

viagranaut

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Joined
Nov 23, 2003
Messages
26
Well now... all you PATRIOTIC types. Think about why prople In the part of the world that are predominatly of the Islamic faith dislike America so. It is mainly because we excuse and support the atrocities that Israel visits upon the Palestinians on a very regular basis. I have never understood why we choose to so support that state and it, a people so few, over so many other states, and so much more of the world's population.
 
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Messages
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viagranaut said:
Well now... all you PATRIOTIC types. Think about why prople In the part of the world that are predominatly of the Islamic faith dislike America so. It is mainly because we excuse and support the atrocities that Israel visits upon the Palestinians on a very regular basis. I have never understood why we choose to so support that state and it, a people so few, over so many other states, and so much more of the world's population.
How true!!!!!:thumbs-up
 

Goofy

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Joined
Oct 1, 2003
Messages
1,559
Shorttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt a very big shout out for that.....I to think we should tell Isreal to kiss our hind parts! We give them billions in aid and they use it to kill the Palestinian people every chance they get and we support it like you said. I think Isreal sucks for another reason as well. A few years ago (I even think it was part of a Law & Order episode) a boy in Maryland (U.S. citizen not sure if he had dual citizenship or not which wouldn't matter anyway) killed and dismembered one of his friends in his parents garage. When the police got around to charging the young fellow he caught the first flight to Isreal and claimed citizenship there whereas they wouldn't extradite him to the U S to face the charges. Isreal charged him themselves and gave him a few years of "hard" labor and told the U S to shove it up their butt they weren't going to get him. I believe he wasn't a citizen of Isreal now that I think about it but his father was. While the boy he cold bloodily murdered is in the ground this kid gets off fairly free and I believe that was wrong. We should have stopped aid until we got the kid back here to face charges. I'm a supporter of the death penalty, yes I do acknowledge that some die innocently more often it's justifiable (of course I think the only crime that should be punishable by death is the taking of anothers life). I just read of a 11 year old boy who was sentenced in the U S for killing a 3 year old for "bothering him and wanting to use his scooter" (he lured the kid out and beat him to death), to 28 years in the system (he was 10 at the time it occured). He will be in a nuthouse until "cured" then given probation for whatever time is left I believe. He could be in there for a few months which isn't right.
 

Patrish

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But that doesn't give anyone the right to discriminate against any person based on their religious, political, race, sexual preference etc......... it wasn't Muslims in general that caused what happened on 9/11, it was terrorists.

Never said anyone should be discriminated against.....BUT read the next post please!
 

Patrish

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In the Old Testament there is so much war and violence sanctioned by Yahweh. Is this the same loving God portrayed in the New Testament?

In the Old Testament there is so much war and violence sanctioned by Yahweh. Is this the same loving God portrayed in the New Testament? Let's take this seriously by quoting a few verses that seem repugnant to us. For example, Deuteronomy 20 contains Yahweh's instructions about war. If a city does not accept Israel's offer of peace and open its gates, then "when the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it"(verse13). With regard to other cities, the command is (verse 16), "Do not leave anything that breathes."

You probably also recall that the walls of Jericho came tumbling down, and then the Israelites "destroyed with the sword every living thing in it - men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, and donkeys"(Joshua 6:21). This certainly seems brutal and vindictive, doesn't it? Or consider Joshua 11:20, "For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the Lord had commanded Moses." From our twenty-first century point of view, we ask, "What good was accomplished by all this annihilation?"

Yet there is clearly another side to Yahweh as well. While the prophet Ezekiel does not spare the wicked in his denunciations, he also records Yahweh's words of grace: "If a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die…Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?" (Ezekiel 18:21, 23). And he goes on in verse 32, "For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!" And there is this compelling verse recorded in 2 Chronicles 16:9, "For the eyes of the Lord range throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him."

All these descriptions of God depict him as unwavering in retribution on evil, though he takes no delight in it, and also unwavering in love and encouragement toward those hearts are turned toward him. God's obvious desire is that sinners should repent and live. But there comes a point where evil is finally intolerable and wiped from off the earth.

We must see these terrible retributions in their historical setting. The spread of wickedness was so pervasive that immorality, degradation, and barbarity invaded every facet of life. Children were sacrificed to pagan gods. Male and female prostitution took place right in the temple as part of the religious rites. Idol worship was rife and the society wholly contaminated. This evil was contagious and God's people were in danger of being infected as well. God's awesome judgement was finally unleashed.

Today we have lost that black and white distinction between good and evil. Tolerance is presented as the great religious value. Indeed, tolerance of diversity is a high Christian value, but often today tolerance is taken to mean the virtue of accepting nearly every behavior under the sun. Anything goes - in the name of tolerance! A sweeping moral relativism is the result, and children grow up with fewer and fewer moral absolutes to guide them. We seldom hear the term sin anymore, but instead a dozen much milder words are employed. Surely the Lord will not tolerate this abomination to his holiness forever.

Nor do we like to accept the fact that when evil spreads, the innocent as well as the guilty are hurt. When the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, the city died, both the innocent and the guilty. A few days later, as a direct result, the war came to an end. It was a terrible end, but it was the end, and greater carnage was avoided. Let's be clear about this stricter and more communal view of justice in the Bible. The Canaanite pagan communities would surely intermarry with the Israelites, and God's people were in danger of succumbing to their sexual perversions and religious degradation. Finally, the danger became just too much

The entire Bible from beginning to end never deviates from this standard of justice as well as grace. Jesus is crystal clear about the punishment of evildoers, for on the day of judgement God will say to the evildoers, "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). Our society does not much care to hear about pain and punishment, and prefers the meek and mild Jesus of some contemporary writers. But the God of the New Testament is the changeless God of the ages.

And in that affirmation lies our only hope. Clearly we have all missed the mark. Each of us stumbles, and wounds, and sins. Even the most godly affirm that over and over. In God's enduring justice, he never simply blinks casually at sin. But that is not the end of the story, nor even the overriding theme of the Bible. For as humanity spirals deeper into self-gratification, God intervenes. Indeed, the Old Testament is a record of God's intervening in the human situation with a new promise of hope. The New Testament is the record of grace applied to people lost in sin and rebellion. There was no compulsion placed on God to undertake this rescue operation. But the plan was and is indescribably marvelous. God did not forget about guilt and justice. Rather, Jesus Christ, the God-man, took on himself the punishment and so satisfied the grisly sentence. This is what Christians call grace. The Bible is mainly a record of grace, set against a backdrop of horror and misery.

This is an ageless and eternal story, persisting into this new millennium. The evil surrounding us seems to be growing and moral apathy seeps in everywhere. But still God's grace shines through. His love persists. He calls and calls until the very last moment. Have you discovered his grace? It's there - available for you to live in every day.
 
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